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Gallowyn
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PostSubject: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:43 am

On AOE dps

Quote :
There is definitely a lot of AE (area effect damage) going on in World of Warcraft dungeon runs at the moment. We’re not too worried about it for now – on the contrary it’s nice to see so many people doing the level-up dungeons on the way to level 80. If we find that AE tank + AE damage strategy (with no sheeping, sapping or other crowd control) is the only way people are running heroics and raids, then we’ll probably make some changes, but for now we’re content to just see what happens.

Having said all that, we feel like a few groups are being left out of the AE fun, which makes them of less utility in the 5-player dungeons. We aren’t able to provide a lot of details yet, but here are some upcoming changes we’re making.

Shaman – we are removing the threat component from Fire Nova Totem and Magma Totem and increasing the damage from Magma Totem. This should provide the Elemental shamans in particular with some formidable AE.
Rogue – we are removing the cooldown from Fan of Knives and adjusting the damage calculation slightly to make daggers more useful for this ability.
Druid – we are adding Swipe (Cat) as a baseline ability.

As is the case with most multi-target abilities, these three should be something you want to use when faced with groups, but never against single targets. Fan of Knives and Swipe, for example, don’t grant combo points so they should never be a core part of the rotation against single targets (like most bosses).

These changes will be available in the next minor content update, so keep an eye out for the next PTR push.
For Naushan

Quote :
We might still do an AE spell for Elemental as well, but that is further down the road. Let me be clear that shamans are intended to be a totem-using class. I would not expect a lot of changes that let you opt out of using totems. Instead we want to make them fun, easy and worth the effort. We did consider the problem of having to run up to AE, but this is what several specs do already -- mages to use Arcane Explosion for example. We talked to a lot of Elemental shamans who thought it wouldn't be a problem. Also remember than when a mage channels Blizzard, that is all she is doing. Totems do damage in addition to your spells.

Our goal is not to make every spec in the game awesome at AE damage. Our goal is to give you a button you can push to contribute in some way. We think Elemental shamans need to fill this role more than the rogues or Feral druids however, since they tend to compete for slots more against warlocks and mages, who have excellent AE. Our goal is for Elemental to be there as well. This may not get them there 100%, but it's a good improvement over nearly 0% which is where they stand today.

As far as whether you can AE too much, as I said, that is something we're keeping an eye on. Even Naxx is considered an entry-level raid and not the kind of place that requires Sunwell (or even Black Temple) -level coordination. For now it's nice to see so many players with the option to run 5-player instances and entry level raids. I would not expect the strategy in Ulduar and Icecrown to be "I'll Swipe while you guys Blizzard. Volley and Hurricane down all the trash."
For Paladins

Quote :
We have already announced or suggested all of these changes would be forthcoming in the next minor content patch. I thought I would list them all in one place for ease of use.

Divine Shield: Penalty changed so that all damage done is reduced by 50% instead of a attack speed penalty.
Divine Protection no longer causes an attack penalty. Divine Shield's penalty was changed to 50% less damage done by the paladin.
Sacred Duty: This Protection talent no longer affects the attack penalty of Divine Shield and Divine Protection, but grants additional bonus Stamina.
Avenging Wrath, Divine Shield, Divine Protection, and Hand of Protection have a shared, 30-second cooldown. The Forbearance effect is no longer triggered by Avenging Wrath.
Judgement of Wisdom now returns a percentage of base mana instead of a percentage of max mana.
All mana drain effects now return a percentage of max enemy mana (making mana drains less punishing to paladins and other characters without large mana pools.)
Judgements of the Pure: This Holy talent now increases the damage done by Seals and Judgements.
All paladins receive a single-target taunt (name TBD) as a base ability.
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shironeko

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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:21 am

Single-target taunt! WOOT WOOT!!!
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Oyvid
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:32 am

buff nerf , buff then nerf again, buff nerf, buff nerf... Sad
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Naushan
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:35 pm

W00t w00t.... run 36 yard in, drop a magma totem (thus removing the totem of wrath buff from raid), and then do some weaksauce "AOE". Sounds like a buff?
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Gallowyn
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:38 pm

Quote :
Shaman – we are removing the threat component from Fire Nova Totem and Magma Totem and increasing the damage from Magma Totem. This should provide the Elemental shamans in particular with some formidable AE.
Quote :
This should provide the Elemental shamans in particular with some formidable AE.
Quote :
formidable AE
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Naushan
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:46 pm

From forum:

I shouldn't even have to present math, because if you look at it, its easy to see how dropping Magma is a huge loss of AoE dps for the other classes, not only that, but also healing.

Totem of Wrath (rank 4) 219 mana at 80
3% crit debuff and 280 spellpower to the whole raid.

Magma Totem (rank 7) 1186 mana at 80
@ 1500 spell power it ticks for 310ish, thats 155 dps on one mob.

Now you factor in the Totem of Wrath for other casters, 280 spellpower, depending on coefficents, equates to an extra couple hundred damage on seed/ arcane explosion / blizzard/ rain of fire ect.

Lets figure were AoE'ing 6 mobs, i drop my totem for 1k+ mana, and that equals about 930 dps.

Now lets look at the other way, Totem of Wrath giving lets just say an extra 150 damage, take one spriest, 2 warlocks, 2 mages and a boomkin. Thats 75 dps per mob per person, 6 people, 6 mobs.
Thats a total of 2700 Raid DPS lost on AoE becaue we decied to be greedy and drop our Magma totem.

This also means that if they even want our magma totem to be viable, they will have to buff it THREE times the damage it does now for it to be better than just dropping totem of wrath.

Do I actually need more proof?
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Gallowyn
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:53 pm

I don't disagree at all. Obviously, we need real buffs! Just like our FoK - consider this: they are now prepared to have no CD at all - how stupidly gimped do you think it was with the original 30 sec CD?

It's just funny how blue puts it sometimes.
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Oyvid
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:06 pm

Woot love the new shammie 'buff'.

Shaman runs in drop totem, die, but totem deals dmg and kills mob then shaman ankh. Tell me that's not OP!

I can imagine in raid next time:

"Shammie A, now run in nekkid and drop that Totem just in the centre of that 20 odd dragons."

Suicide shammie totems dropper ftw!

Now Die infidel Die!
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Gallowyn
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:18 pm

We need a .gif of a shaman suicide bomber running into mobs with a flaming totem.
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Naushan
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:23 pm

er....when Shammie dies, the totem also 'dies'... hence no AOE. But... blizzard is brilliant! Fire totems now has no aggro, so we can charge in yelling "Banzai" (or "Pangsai") and still survive.
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Spendrak
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:16 pm

they should make the totem tossable, like a molotov cocktail.
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Naushan
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:32 pm

I knew we should've vote Spendrak to be class designer. <3 Spendrak!
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Junek
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:33 pm

Omg thanks for making one of the funniest threads ever!!! I needed a laugh tonight.
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Gallowyn
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:38 am

Hey Nau:

Quote :
But the change to Magma Totem in particular is substantial. The base points went from 170 to 370 and the coefficient from 0.67 to 1.0. In our tests, the pulses were doing something like 600 damage. You would be hard-pressed to get that kind of increase out of Totem of Wrath, even considering its benefit to the whole raid.

Yes you have to run up, but we don't think that is too much to ask considering you can still Chain Lightning or whatever while the totem does its thing.

Totems are a core piece of the shaman design. We want to make them work, not remove them from the game.
and also:

Quote :
We are making some upcoming changes to the Elemental shaman tree. Our goal was to streamline a few of the utility-based talents while giving shamans a little more damage scaling in later tiers of gear.

1) Unrelenting Storm – reduced from 5 points to 3 points. Bonus is 4/8/12% of your Intellect returned as mana.
2) Elemental Warding – now reduces all damage (not just Nature, Fire and Frost) taken by 2/4/6%
3) Elemental Shields – this talent has been removed, since its effects were combined with Elemental Warding.
4) Storm, Earth and Fire – reduced from 5 points to 3 points, but keeps around the same net benefit. In addition to current effects, also increases Wind Shock range. The damage bonus to Flame Shock has increased to 60% at 3 ranks. Storm, Earth and Fire has been moved up the tree as well.
5) Shamanism – this is a new 5 point talent in the old Storm, Earth and Fire position. Your Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst gain an additional percentage of your bonus damage. We have not finalized the numbers, but it will probably be something like 10% for Lightning Bolt and 20% for Lava Burst at max ranks.

These changes will be available in the next minor content patch, and are in addition to the AE changes mentioned previously.
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Naushan
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:46 am

Hmmm sounds good. If I'm continuing with elemental, looks like I need to practice running up and down (/looks for my Nike gleaves)

Looks like moar good news for Elemental Shammies afterall. Finally some scalability in our main spell (Lightning bolt), that was nerfed to hell due to coefficient change in 3.02. Still, I'm cautiously optimistic, because Blizzard has a long history of giving us something good, and then nerf it to heck in the next 10 patches.

We are making some upcoming changes to the Elemental shaman tree. Our goal was to streamline a few of the utility-based talents while giving shamans a little more damage scaling in later tiers of gear.

1) Unrelenting Storm – reduced from 5 points to 3 points. Bonus is 4/8/12% of your Intellect returned as mana.
2) Elemental Warding – now reduces all damage (not just Nature, Fire and Frost) taken by 2/4/6%
3) Elemental Shields – this talent has been removed, since its effects were combined with Elemental Warding.
4) Storm, Earth and Fire – reduced from 5 points to 3 points, but keeps around the same net benefit. In addition to current effects, also increases Wind Shock range. The damage bonus to Flame Shock has increased to 60% at 3 ranks. Storm, Earth and Fire has been moved up the tree as well.
5) Shamanism – this is a new 5 point talent in the old Storm, Earth and Fire position. Your Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst gain an additional percentage of your bonus damage. We have not finalized the numbers, but it will probably be something like 10% for Lightning Bolt and 20% for Lava Burst at max ranks.

These changes will be available in the next minor content patch, and are in addition to the AE changes mentioned previously.
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Oyvid
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:41 am

unfortunately Nau, they didn't buff lightning spells for you. They did for Thrall so he doesn't gets pwned again when he duels with another warrior. He's been like lvl XXXXX since day 1 and there's this noob warrior Hellscream that only started wow in BC and scaled better than him.
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Naushan
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:52 pm

Yea, these were changes to prevent Thrall from rerolling DK. Sad.
Still Thrall is a PVP noob who didn't heal himself, casts chainlightning on a single target and didn't drop a single totem. He's hopeless.
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Boobsie
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PostSubject: Re: Upcoming AOE dps and Paladin changes   Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:45 am

Spendrak wrote:
they should make the totem tossable, like a molotov cocktail.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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